Entangled Things
Entangled Things
Episode 138: Trapped Ion Technology
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In Episode 138, Patrick and Ciprian explore how MIT’s new photonic chip approach promises to pave the way for more scalable, energy-efficient trapped ion quantum computers. The team discuss why controlling ions with integrated photonics could dramatically lower costs, boost qubit stability, and solve long-standing scalability hurdles. They also break down how these tiny antennas routing light directly to the trapped ions remove the need for bulky external lasers, opening the door to compact, room-temperature quantum systems, potentially revolutionizing everything from nanotech to medicine.
Hey Ciprian, how are you doing? Hey, Patrick. I'm doing great, looking forward for another great episode of Entangled Things.
SPEAKER_03Well we're lonely today. It's just you and I, but uh it's it's kind of a significant milestone. So we're five years and a little bit of doing this. So every two weeks for five years, we've released an episode. Consistency is key, uh, and we've talked about so much. I I don't want to do a full retrospective because we do have something to talk about today. Uh, but it's been amazing to understand things that we weren't talking about five years ago, you and I. We I really wasn't talking about quantum sensing. I really wasn't getting into annealing. Um, so it's it's been very uh revealing the because of our guests mostly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. I I think every time I'm like looking back at the unbelievable length of of our um of our podcast, I I think we were really fortunate to have an an incredible line of uh of guests. And uh uh It's true what they say, right? If you really want to learn about something, uh do a podcast.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's helped a lot. So we're gonna have a lot of great guests the rest of this year, uh, a lot of recurring people who've come back, a lot of new people who um you know we've met along the way. Uh, but we have something to talk about today. We don't have a guest to talk about it, but uh MIT News has an article that you point you brought to my attention. You want to talk about what what they're saying and why we're surprised?
SPEAKER_00It's it's an interesting thing because it's another, yet another um idea that could dramatically change things in this time in the modalities um of building quantum computers. And remember, many, many times we are talking about the modalities, and we say, look, there is no clear winner here. Right. It could be that it's something completely different from what we are talking about these days. Um this is an interesting uh uh research and and result that was um uh was published. Uh and it refers to a modality that we often refer to and we often mention, we haven't really kind of discussed in depth, right? Uh despite the fact that it's one of the first ones that was attempted. And I'm talking here about uh uh about trapped ions, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And um trapped ions have been uh in in many, many applications, even before we call them quantum computers, right? Remember, things like atomic clocks and and other things are are actually using this this phenomenon. And the the interesting thing about building a quantum computer with trapped ions is the temperature. Uh and the kind of keyword here is trapped, right? In order to keep the ion trapped, uh, which essentially means control it properly, you need to go uh down a lot in terms of temperature. You need to cool down that chip to very, very low temperatures. Um, and um then you have the problem of controlling the ion. And and the the standard approach, the uh would I dare to say traditional approach is to use lasers.
SPEAKER_03Right. Um laser tweezers, basically, is what when we had Yval Boger on uh from QRA, he talked about laser tweezers. Now they use neutral atoms, not ions. I I think that's a a matter of how big you want the biggest atomic structure you can get without being a multiple at atomic molecule. So so they want ions that are you know really big or neutral atoms that are really big so that they can, you know, so it's it's easier to to grab something if it's bigger at these scales.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And also neutral atoms require uh significantly uh less cooling, right?
SPEAKER_03They well doesn't the doesn't I so maybe I'm misunderstanding. My understanding was the fact that you're holding an atom or an ion in place cools it because heat is just moving around.
SPEAKER_00Heat is it's it's yes, exactly. It's it's kind of like a side effect, right, of the of the control. Um what caught my attention, and I think is is a very interesting idea, is uh the the team at MIT is proposing a radically different approach to essentially control, right, and and and ultimately also cool those those ions. Traditionally, the lasers were big bulky things that were coming from the outside, right? So you were concentrating those lasers um on the uh on the ions and attempting to uh uh to control them, right? So um this was one of the limiting factors, and it still is obviously one of the limiting factors for uh uh trapped ions. And the announcement that was published by the MIT research team is that they are working on a significantly more efficient way to cool these um uh ions. Instead of coming with the lasers from the outside, they're actually building photonic chips that would provide the same capability of those lasers, but very, very close or significantly closer to um uh to the trapped uh eye, right? So basically what they they they claim they can achieve is an order of magnitude, meaning 10 times, right? Getting 10 times below the limit of like standard laser cooling by doing it with photonic chips. And that in itself, the idea, right, is uh one of the things that that I believe could be a significant uh game changer, at least for the trapped ions.
SPEAKER_03So to paraphrase an old horror movie, the lasers are coming from inside the chip.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah, I mean, I I guess I never thought of this. And and the this so this is fun, this is the funny thing, is that you get enlightenment by, you know, I never thought of it, but of course the lasers you'd you'd envision maybe there's a uh a trapped ion computer, uh quantum computer with a hundred qubits, and maybe there's only a dozen lasers that control and move things around. Well, it's kind of like cranes at a at a at a shipyard. You know, you've seen those cranes like at you know Long Beach and other shipyards in in Hong Kong where you've got a few cranes and they move the things. Well, you can't you can't do anything unless you've got a crane available. So this might also mean that you can do more um moving and controlling of individual qubits, because I doubt those older systems had lasers dedicated to each qubit, but it sounds like they might in this case.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I mean, let's just quickly remind our audience, right, uh uh what is the the trapped iron approach, essentially, right? The the way you do it um is essentially you peel off an electron from an atom, and that gives you an ion, right? And then basically, you trap that ion, which is an atom that is is is missing an electron, uh using frequency. Yeah, it would have a positive positive frequency signals, yeah, uh, and you manipulate it using optical signals. That's kind of the gist of the trapped ion uh approach, and has significantly improved within these confinements uh in in years uh to the point where now essentially it happens uh in a plane, right? So you don't need to build little things, little towers that control, right, and trap the iron as you you have uh uh you had to do it maybe 10 years ago, right? It's it's significantly uh uh efficient, right? But still um it is uh very difficult to uh uh to control, um, especially when you talk about scalability, because the scalability is the the big problem of every single quantum computer uh quantum computer builder, right? And because you need to prevent collisions between that uh ion, right, and gas molecules in the air, it's it's like that low, right? It it becomes a game of how do I prevent my ion from colliding with gas molecules in the air. What you have to do, right, is you need to keep those ions in an almost perfect vacuum so that you you limit every type of interference there. And uh what you do in the traditional approach is essentially you have these bulky lasers that sit outside, and you attempt to achieve that uh with those uh uh bulk.
SPEAKER_03So you're probably looking at more powerful lasers, which means more heat, more energy with the old approach. With the new approach, then they're they're closer. You probably have more of them. So they're you know, they're more dedicated to you know a fewer number of qubits, if not even one to one or five to one or whatever the ratios are. There's not a lot of detail in the article about that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh there's a there's a research, uh the article refers to two research papers um that are published. So the research papers themselves contain like the super specific scientific details. But the the principle I think is very interesting because the one problem that was hurting a lot, these trapped ion structures, uh, were vibrations. Even the the slightest vibration in the structure of those outside lasers would dramatically affect their accuracy and ultimately the quality of the qubits that were built to this this wave. So it's not only that you have to build those things, it's not only that you have to ensure like the perfect vacuum. You also need to ensure a room that is completely free of vibration, um, even vibrations coming from the outside. And you would technically say sure, but when I'm sitting on my chair, right in my room at my desk, we're sitting both of us at a desk right now, right? We don't feel vibration. Well, it's not that kind of vibration. It's it's the kind of vibration, right, that you would not even feel, like even the slightest thing uh uh would would provoke.
SPEAKER_03If I think about this, I mean you're dealing with a trapped ion. I I don't know off the top of my head what um what element they're using for this. Um, but it's it's probably the large you know, a larger element so that they can do it. But even if you took the smallest metals, the smallest materials you can build a laser with, you would have to think that that laser would be bigger by orders of magnitude than the than the atom that that you're trying to control, the the ion that you're trying to control. And so I think this has really big um consequences down the line, this kind of research for nanobot nanobots, uh, you know, nanotechnologies, um, things of that nature. Because if you can control a single atom, then you probably can control molecules and medicines and and other things like that. Uh so I'd be very curious. I mean, there's not a lot of detail. I don't I don't think it they there's no pictures, of course, but um there's not a lot of description uh in how uh this is achieved. It's not like you could have this a traditional laser. It's not like you shrink a little laser down because there's just so few atoms that can be used before you get to a macro scale. And that's why the approach was used that you describe where the lasers came from the outside, because then the laser can be whatever size it needs to be. And as long as the beam is confined.
SPEAKER_00Um what they what they apparently use is obviously significantly lower power. Um, I wouldn't even call them lasers anymore, right? Uh probably it's better to call them like optical fields, but their approach is to actually use um two distinct beams of light, right? And uh because of the interactions of those two distinct beams of light, there is a a phenomenon that that happens there, uh which is uh called uh polarized gradient cooling, which essentially limits the degrees of freedom of that particular ion, right? And the more you limit the degrees of freedom, the cooler it it gets. So it's not really building. I uh the way I read into this, it's not really building mini lasers, right? It's actually using photonics, so generating beams of uh of light, in these two cases, two beams of light, that would have this effect of essentially reducing the kinetic energy of the of the ion. So that's why I think it's it's really, really um uh interesting, and we will um have to like like um keep an eye on this because uh I think this was attempted multiple times in the past, but it's the first time someone really publishes uh um information right about uh achieving the possibility of efficient uh uh efficient cooling.
SPEAKER_03So I wonder and this is me thinking a lot, I guess. I wonder if the way you'd do this is you'd have a a source of coherent light. So a laser, if you will. Source of coherent light, and you'd have an aperture at each qubit so that you could turn it off or on. And when it's on, it's it's it's doing its thing. And maybe it's always on. Maybe there isn't need to be an aperture that closes and opens, and that it's manipulating the state of the are these lasers used to manipulate the state of the qubits, do we know?
SPEAKER_00As as far as my understanding is, this is mostly focused on the cooling side.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so then therefore you wouldn't need an aperture, you'd just need a source. So you could literally have a conventional laser device creating coherent photonic streams, and you could channel them through fiber optics to the chip, and then basically have them basically be the thing that's holding it in place. Think of like the um, you ever see the the bell, the bell that goes over the cheese plate? Yeah, the glass bell. It I imagine it being like that made of photons. Yeah, right. And it's holding that eye on where you want it. And by being more efficient and being more focused, it can hold it in place ten times more efficiently, which it translates to ten times the cooling. So we might literally move from three Kelvin to 0.3 Kelvin.
SPEAKER_00Something, something significantly lower. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Now, the the my uh one of the things that um our guests who've talked about trapped ions, trapped neutral atoms have discussed is that the whole system runs at room temperature. That only the ions, only the the neutral atoms are at z at zero Kelvin or near zero Kelvin, and that it's just in a room is I I think that's the case here as well.
SPEAKER_00This this this would I I think this opens the possibility of having systems based on trapped ions that would essentially work in a fairly similar approach, like with neutral atoms, right? Yeah, because the big advantage of the neutral atoms is that um the cold part is is really focused around them. And I think I think you're spot on, Patrick, because what what they're claiming um in the in the article is that basically they have like uh two nanoscale antennas on the on the chip, right? Which are um emitting beams of light to manipulate a um trapped ion that sits at a layer above these these antennas. And those antennas themselves are actually connected by waveguides that route the light to them. So it's it's I I think it's a very interesting approach, right? Where they are routing light uh using this this chips, and then they are using those nanoscale antennas to emit it in a way that would control the trap ion, which is very interesting.
SPEAKER_03By using the word antenna, you made me realize that they're they're probably manipulating the duality of light as both a wave and a particle. I was thinking of it as a particle, because it's hard to think of it as both. You have to think of it as both. But uh but by using the word antenna, they're invoking the wave understanding of light as opposed to the particle understanding of light.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my understanding is that they have some some very intricate ways, right, of of shedding these beams of light to the ion that that sits above, which essentially creates this this very, very interesting, uh, very interesting effect. But uh without kind of risking into going back into even more detail, I I think the principle is worth kind of uh uh noting here, which is instead of trying to cool something, right, with external forces, which has been the fundamental approach, the standard approach, right, for these cryostats, what this technique is is proposing is let's try to do the cooling at the ions level, at that trapped ions level. So in my mind, the way I see it, right, if you say build a system with, I don't know, a hundred trapped ions acting as qubits, you literally build a hundred tiny, tiny, tiny cryostats, right? Refrigerators, yeah, which are essentially acting on their associated trapped ions.
SPEAKER_03And the temperatures the temperature is localized to that trapped ion, not the whole chamber, the whole room. Because you're not, it's a vacuum. You can't allow air, you can't allow other things in that space. So therefore, it's got to be a vacuum chamber, a cryostat's a good good analogy. You've got these antennas that are that are pumping a waveform of light that holds it into one place, that that confines it into one place.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think, again, this is very obviously very early work, right? But uh in my mind, to be very honest, I always looked at trapped ions as like a great approach, but um somehow I felt it was uh not going to have the same, let's say, opportunities of development in terms of scaling because of the very nature, right? Of the requirements on one hand and also uh regarding the topology of these things.
SPEAKER_03But this could break it, break that open?
SPEAKER_00I think, yes, yes. I think this could uh literally kick uh um uh trapped ion modalities into a higher tier. And if it proves to be stable enough to also do scaling. Right, and and other things. Because just to be clear, what the MIT team is stating here is that they have validated the principle, right, and they have like a working uh uh setup for this, but as we know very well, right, a lot of things need to then fall into the right place for scalability, for being able to properly uh further control these trap ions so that they can have I mean in the five year in the five years and before that we've been doing this, it's definitely noticed.
SPEAKER_03We I've definitely noticed, and I know you've noticed, that there's a step function. It's not a linear curve of, oh, we're just gonna get progress every day. And and we're seeing this in AI. Well, your your your your favorite topic other than quantum pavy um is you have these sudden jumps. Like in machine learning in 2014, we had a sudden jump, and Chat GPT got us a sudden jump in awareness of the mass population. And these step functions, you don't, you can't predict them. You can you know hope and you can watch the news and see what's going on. And it's only in looking back that we'll we'll really understand their impact. We're lucky that Bell Labs didn't say, well, vacuum tubes are good enough. We don't need to look for anything else because we'd be using vacuum tube computers, and they wouldn't really, I don't think they would have scaled the way they have. Um, and so we we we need to keep thinking, have an open mind towards these different modalities, is I think key.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's it's the different modalities, and it's also the uh the sometimes human genius behind taking like a slightly different approach or even radically different approach. Uh I distinctly remember, because since we also talked about our five years um uh in the making, I distinctly remember when we were talking to the Harvard team uh and they were explaining us like, hey, look, uh we thought we could uh address the problem of two qubit gates and the problem of the limitations of the topology, right? By guess what? Moving the qubits, right? Where they were like, cool. So if we want to run a two-qubit gate, we're just gonna bring the two qubits together, we're gonna run the gate and we're gonna send them back uh where they where they can, right?
SPEAKER_03So that doesn't I I wonder how that interferes with this or or how these two because that was the the outside lasers. Yes. The outside lasers picking up a cube bit and moving it. I guess it doesn't prohibit that here. Because you could move you could potentially use the external lasers, like what we're calling external lasers, they're still in the quantum computer, but you could use the big lasers, the outs external lasers, to pick up a quantum bit out of one of the cryostats, shut off the local stream, and then move it to another cryostat. I wonder, yeah. So yeah, I mean it's two steps forwards, one step back. We you know, we Yeah, yeah. There's other engineering challenges, as we said, you know, the step function um aspects of this. Um but yeah, and and and when we first started the podcast, I didn't I didn't really think of of uh this was like an also ran. I didn't think of uh trapped ions or trapped neutral atoms as uh a major contender, and it very well could be the one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think these kind of of, as you were, we all pointed out, these I would even call them sudden advances, right? Where uh there is a new idea that essentially opens uh a whole lot of opportunities for these these these modalities is is the thing that will push um uh the the quality uh of the qubits forward and also the number, right? And um across the whole range of modalities, if you think about it, right? Uh we've seen some of the developments that were published uh in the field of topological quantum computing, mostly driven by Microsoft. We've seen the uh uh the news, right, about what the Harvard team and the um uh QRA team is is is doing. This interesting approach, right, from from from MIT. Uh I I believe that there is a lot yet to be um uncovered in terms of the modalities. And what really makes it interesting for me, uh, I'm talking about this particular announcement coming from MIT, is I think you should never discard, as you very well pointed out, any of the modalities. Because even if a certain modality seems to, let's say, have reached a certain plateau in terms of its development, right? And you don't hear significant news for like, I don't know, six months, twelve months, whatever, right? You could face something like this where all of a sudden, hey, yes, we had this idea, and now trapped ions are becoming, let's say, more uh easier to cool down, more efficient. Uh, they can reach better scalability. And just to be very clear, right, all of these things still have to be proven, right? We're talking here about an interesting idea, a concept that was good enough and could be proven, right? Hence it was uh uh published in in peer-reviewed journals, but you should never literally discard, like say, yeah, yeah, yeah, people have tried a lot with, I don't know, trapped ions, and we know all about those.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00This this is what what makes it for me, to be honest, again, thinking about the five years, is that you never know what next month is going to bring.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um in terms of like new announcements, in terms of the things that that that that get discovered, and then the the the results. That's I think that's the brilliant part.
SPEAKER_03The safe bet in the beginning of the actual quantum age, when there were real actual quantum computers, actual qubits that could calculate. The safe bet's always been seen as um superconducting qubits, um, superconducting circuits. Um, and then you know, you you got the other modalities, photonics, um, you know, trapped ions, uh, Microsoft's uh endeavors with um the uh you know equixotic materials that didn't exist. And the problem is it's it's almost, I mean, to come up with a a grand analogy, it's like we start in Boston and the goal is to circle the earth. Well, I might decide to use a balloon, you know, like the movie, or I might decide to walk or use a horse or a car. But there's lots of ways, you know, you're gonna get trapped by the oceans. You're gonna run up against limits that you can't surpass. Um if you wait for the jet, you're gonna get there more efficiently, but you're not gonna leave as soon. You're not gonna, you know, you're not gonna start walking right away. And I think we may very well be looking at it's gonna be a jet. Now, the United States has an agency called DARP. I've mentioned them in the past, and what they do is they fund research that they think has the potential to unlock something um big. And so they they funded autonomous vehicles and drone technology, GPS, the internet. Um, so this is why, you know, Al Gore helped establ uh uh fund DARPA, so therefore he helped create the internet. Uh so the saying goes. But one of the things that they've done in the last couple of years is they've approached several companies, including Microsoft, because they were curious about whether these new modalities or less mainstream modalities might be the breakout that gets us to a million qubits. Microsoft's been really quiet, and you and I, you know, we we listen attently to that. Um I don't know whether they're ever gonna have a big step function where they're gonna catch up with everyone else. I don't know if Trapped Ions is gonna be the runaway hero here, but it's definitely an interesting space to watch. Um Is there anything else that you've seen recently before we wrap up? We're at we're at 30 minutes now that we should talk about as far as modalities go, or is this the this is the big news I think of the day?
SPEAKER_00It it is the big news, but I really want to uh I I know we're close to be at time, but I want to get back to your analogy because I absolutely like it. And I would like to add a twist to it. Right. So you said, hey, you've got to circle the globe, right? And then you can, let's say you're, I don't know, in the um 1850, you're in 1850, right? And you have the choice of going by horse or by balloon, right? Let's think a little bit different. Change the task. Your task is to circle the globe a thousand times. Not one time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right?
SPEAKER_03Add a little bit of scalability into this. So walking becomes much more daunting at that point. Horses become much more daunting.
SPEAKER_00Even horse, even balloon, right? And then you have the choice of hey, I'm gonna start doing the circling with whatever we have now. Which waits, or invest in something, right? Wait 60 more years or 70 more years, right? Uh until, or let's say 80 more years until I get like the first fast airplane. Right. And then all of a sudden, what seems to be technically impossible because of the scale, right, becomes true.
SPEAKER_03And I think uh with this twist, the analogy perfectly describes well, it's like would you rather go to Alpha Centauri and leave now or wait 50 years and we'll pass you with the new technology before you even get past the org cloud?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly. That is, yeah, yeah. Getting back to your question, I think what I really liked about uh 2025, uh, it was a year where we've seen multiple uh breakthroughs uh in various types of of modalities. Uh but I think the even bigger thing was that we've seen breakthroughs in terms of stable uh qubits.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think 2025 was a year where we've seen massive advancements in error correction, uh kind of combined with the stability um of multiple of multiple qubits. And my hope for 2026, honestly, is that that this trend will will continue.
SPEAKER_03Slow and steady.
SPEAKER_00And and yeah, and and we will see, hopefully within a few years, we will see some some really, really like truly remarkable results that would essentially put us into a situation where we can talk with more, let's say, confidence about commercially available scaled uh uh scaled quantum uh computers. Now, there's one interesting thing that is happening this year, by the way, speaking about modalities, is I think somehow uh AI is still uh stealing a little bit the show in the sense that we see all the discussion and all the kind of heated debate and and uh still all the massive investments uh uh going into AI. And as you said, I'm coming from the AI side, so I I think that's that's that's welcome. Uh but um my hope and also my perception is that quantum is still going at a very, very uh steady and fast pace in terms of the of the developments. If we just look at the rounds of investments that some of the kind of flagship companies have got uh in the past 12 months, I think uh there's a lot of very interesting new things that are going to be uh I think part of it is that it's an area of physics that is seeing progress, while theoretical, you know, string theory, things like that have gotten to points where they you can't test them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And so I think this is a positive, constructive, potentially profitable output for these universities. So, you know, we've talked to Fred Chong from Chicago University, we've talked to professors from many universities, and you know, we we talked to the Harvard team. Universities are still playing a very big role here because there's fundamental science at stake as well, you know, and and it's applications beyond just quantum, like we were talking about with this.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And then the other thing is remember we had uh a few guests that were kind of stressing out the fact that the developments in the quantum computing side, right, are actually driving ideas and potential developments in fundamental physics as well. So I think it's kind of an area, it's like a two-way street here, right? You you need some advancements in the fundamental physics, but also advancements in building the quantum computers can help us uncover, right? Uh uh new things about uh uh about about physics. Like think of it like this like I don't know, 20 years ago, who could imagine that we will be able to build something that can move atoms in space, right? Or if we speak about communications, building single photon emitters and single photon detectors um are things that that a few decades ago were purely theoretical, but nobody was like, build diamonds, build artificial diamonds with specific flaws at specific atomic levels. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03The nano world is gonna come eventually, but I think it's gonna be on the back of the quantum developments.
SPEAKER_00Most likely, yes. So this is why I was very excited, right, about this particular announcement, uh, because it's yet another proof that things can be can move and not only move, but also things can essentially turn a modality uh into like the new red-hot kind of cool kid on the block that can significantly advance the building of those uh large number stable qubits that we all strive for. So this was great, and it was a great way to start um 2026, um, especially because it was a modality that we were not particularly um uh seeing a lot of news um in in the previous years. So I think we're uh we're looking great in in the space, and I'm honestly very excited about um what are some of the new things that we will learn from our uh guests in Twitter.
SPEAKER_03I'm imagining what we'll be talking about five years hence, so uh, but let's take it one year at a time.
SPEAKER_00We might want to do an episode, Patrick, by the way, where we would just lay down a list of things that we believe we will be talking about in I don't know, two years' time or whatever. And then when the time comes, it will be great to review that episode. Although or to delete it. Yeah, exactly. We might not want to make it public after all.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I don't know what episode you're talking about.
SPEAKER_03All right. Well we'll leave it there as usual. Great talking to you, Cyprian, and we'll see everybody else next time on Entangled Things.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Bye.
SPEAKER_01Have a great time at Runby.
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